Jim McDaniels Interview

Jim McDaniels arrived on the Hill in the Fall of 1967, as perhaps the most highly sought after high school recruit in the entire nation. And by the time his remarkable collegiate career had ended, "Big Mac" had secured a spot as one of, if the not THE, greatest player to ever don the red and white.

From his prep days at nearby Allen County-Scottsville, where he averaged nearly 40 pts. per game, the smooth and graceful seven-foot center seemed destined for greatness. When he fulfilled his lifelong dream of becoming a Hilltopper, McDaniels set the stage for what turned out to be some of the most exciting years in Western Kentucky Basketball history.

From 1968-71, Mac helped lead the Toppers to a combined 62-19 record and an incredible 36-0 slate at Diddle Arena!! The 1969-70 Hilltopper squad finished the regular season with a remarkable 22-2 record, losing only to Kansas and Duquesne on the road. Unfortunately, in the first round of the 1970 NCAA Tournament, the Toppers fell to the eventual national runners-up, the Atis Gilmore-led Jacksonville Dolphins, in a 109-96 shootout, in what proved to be the first of three epic match-ups between the two schools.

Determined to remove the bitter taste of defeat from their mouths, McDaniels and his teammates entered into the 1970-71 season with a vengeance. Finishing the regular season with a 20-5 mark, the Toppers returned to the big dance only to find Gilmore and Jacksonville again waiting in the wings. This time however, it was the McDaniels-led Hilltoppers that proved victorious, as they rallied from an 18 point half-time deficit to win 74-72, in the now famous Clarence Glover shoestring play. Following on the heels of that tremendous come-back victory, came the now historic match-up with adoph rupp and the kentucky wildcats. In a game that proved anti-climatic, Western rolled to an incredibly easy 107-83 victory behind McDaniel's 36 points. Following an 81-78 overtime victory over Ohio State, the Toppers rolled into their first-ever NCAA Final Four appearance at the Astrodome in Houston, TX. Unfortunately, the team's championship hopes were dashed as they were upset 92-89 by Villanova in double-overtime. Determined to leave on a winning note however, McDaniels and the Toppers came back strong to defeat Kansas 77-75 in the consolation game to claim third-place honors.

"Big Mac's" impact on the Hilltopper record book is mind-boggling. To this day, he still ranks as the school's number one all-time leading scorer with 2,238 points, for a career average of 27.6 ppg, a mark which is also a school record. McDaniel's senior scoring average of 29.3 ppg is likewise an all-time Hilltopper record. Definitely not a one-dimensional player, Mac proved his worth on the boards as well, by grabbing a total of 1,118 rebounds for a career average of 13.8rpg......once again a Hilltopper record.

Individual awards came frequently to McDaniels during this period, as he was named to several All-American teams both his sophomore and junior years, and as a senior he received the ultimate honor by being picked as a consensus first-team All-American.

Professional success seemed inevitable for McDaniels, and he captured national headlines in 1971, by signing the first $1million dollar contract in sports history.
However, despite playing in the ABA and the NBA for a period of seven years, a combination of off the court legal battles, concerning contract issues, and bad team situations prevented the Hilltopper legend from achieveing equal success in the pro ranks.

After retiring from basketball in 1978, McDaniels remained in California until the mid-90's, when he again returned to Bowling Green to live. Currently, however, Jim and his wife now make their home in Charlotte, NC, but on January 22, 2000, Big Mac will again return to the Hill for a special ceremony in E.A. Diddle Arena, as he becomes only the second Hilltopper to have a jersey retired in his honor. A fitting tribute for a true Hilltopper legend.

This interview was conducted on Tuesday, January 4, 2000, and has been transcribed almost in it's entirety. Hopefully, it will give Western fans everywhere a chance to get to know this legendary Topper a little bit better

HH: At what age did you really begin to get seriously involved with basketball?
JM: Probably about the seventh grade.
HH: Now were you always taller than everyone else in your class or did you have like a major growth spurt over a year or so or what?
JM: Well, at that age I really wasn't, but finally when I got to about the ninth grade I was pretty much taller than everybody.

HH: Did you play varsity right away, as a freshman?
JM: Actually, I didn't. At first I went to a black school.
HH: This is also in Allen Co.?
JM: Yes. It was a little bit different time period. I was there in eighth grade and high school...my freshman year. I never went to the gymnasium until I was in the eighth grade. I had never been inside a gymnasium until then.
HH: So you had just always played outside?
JM: Right, on a dirt court.

HH: Well, when did you start varsity, as a sophomore?
JM: I transferred from Scottsville High School to Allen County High School my sophomore year and I sat out that year, my sophomore year.
HH: So, you didn't play until you were a junior then?
JM: Right. I started varsity my junior year.
HH: How tall were you at that time? Were you almost seven-foot then?
JM: Six-Nine.

HH: How far did you take Allen County-Scottsville in the Sweet Sixteen?
JM: We went all the way to the semifinals my senior year. We got knocked out in the regional championship game my junior year....by Glasgow.....a Jim Richard's team. He was a high school and a good one. Then my senior year we went all the way and just about made it. We didn't quite make it though.
HH: Who was it that knocked you out?
JM: Central High School (Louisville).
HH: Did they have any future college players on that team?
JM: They had two or three. In high school they usually had two or three guys guarding me. So I got used to that in high school.

HH: Now that Glasgow team that beat you....were you playing against Jerry Dunn and Rex Bailey?
JM: No, they were behind me at that time. Now Bailey was there, but Dunn wasn't there at the time.
HH: How many points did you average as a senior? Was it like 40-some points? Is that right?
JM: Close to 40.
HH: What about your junior year?
JM: Twenty-nine or thirty.

HH: Now around what time did colleges really begin to notice you and start calling, as a junior?
JM: Right. Coaches started showing up at a lot of my high school games during my junior year.
HH: I guess Coach Oldham was there from the very beginning also?
JM: Coach "O"? Yeah. Of course I grew up near Western and I grew up a big Hilltopper fan. Those guys would always come watch me play. I guess I was born to be a Hilltopper.
HH: So were you pretty familiar all your life with Western Basketball? Did you used to come up to Bowling Green as a kid and watch the games?
JM: I went up quite a bit but I listened to the games on the radio. It was very exciting. You know you grow up right there, it's kind of hard not too.......it's in your blood.

HH: So did Clem and Dwight and those guys have a big influence on you as far as coming to Western?
JM: Yes, exactly. They sure did. They were down there many times. Watching practices and talking to me. Coach Diddle was over or Coach Oldham was over. Every time you turn around, I'd tell somebody, as I was going out the door of the high school there was a Hilltopper there. Really. That was about basically it. They aggressively recruited me. I talked to Clem quite often and Dwight Smith. Dwight Smith had a big influence. I was already pretty much in love with Western any way, but that was just great. They were the torch of integration of Western at the time and they made it quite a bit easier for me and the other guys who came in.
HH: Now did you get to know Dwight pretty well?
JM: Yes I did.
HH: I believe the car wreck happened on the same day that you signed, is that right?
JM: Yeah, I was with him three days before it happened for a couple of hours talking about it. He said he was going home and I told him I was going to sign and everything, and he said, "Well, I'll be back. I'll be there at the press conference." So obviously I was quite shocked about that. That was an incredible situation that happened there. He was a fine player. He and Clem were my two favorite players. I was really shocked about that. I winded up going to his funeral....a lot of things happened in that week's period of time there.

HH: Well, talk about Coach Oldham. What was it about him really that impressed you the most?
JM: I don't know. It's just......I had watched Coach coach the players.....I just liked the way the man even walked. There was just something about him that just amazed me. He was so cool and calm. And I kind of knew that I wanted to play for him by my senior year. I said if I go to Western that would be one reason why I'd go, without a doubt. I just really liked Coach Oldham before I even actually met him and talked to him, just by watching him and how he coached the team. I liked fast break basketball....I liked everything he did. I liked his demeanor....the same thing when I was playing for him....when he did stand up to say something there was a problem on the court, and outside of that he would sit there and enjoy the game. He wasn't one of these coaches up screaming every minute. That to me just makes players nervous. He was very calm, and when he stood up he got our attention about what he wanted done, and that was fine. He reminds me a little bit of Phil Jackson....they coach with about the same demeanor.

HH: Now your high school coach was a former Western player also wasn't he?
JM: Both of them were....Jimmy Bazell, my junior year, he was one of the top coaches in Kentucky. He retired and became the superintendent of Allen County Schools. Then his assistant, Tommy Long, was a Hilltopper also, a player. So I was surrounded by Hilltoppers. I loved both those coaches....all three of the coaches. Coach Oldham and Coach Diddle and those two coaches had a big influence on my early career. They were fine men and very dedicated coaches....a lot of good principles.

HH: So who were your final choices? Was there really anywhere else besides Western that you almost considered going to?
JM: Well, I was up at kentucky, and I kind of considered them a little bit. I was up there for three days and I spent about fifteen minutes with Coach Rupp. That didn't quite make me feel real comfortable.
HH: Did you get the impression that he wanted you at all?
JM: I got a feeling that he did in a way, but they didn't know how to deal with a black guy exactly....I don't know. I didn't feel comfortable....just put it that way. At the time, I had the opportunity to become the first African-American basketball player there, but I was born a Hilltopper....like I said, those guys recruited me totally different. I was near Western, my family could see me play....there were just a lot of pluses at that time for me to go to Western.....and I made the right choice for me. I loved my four years on the Hill and the guys I played with also.

HH: Yeah, when you chose Western that really influenced Perry and Rose and those guys to come along too didn't it?
JM: Right, right, right....we were at the Kentucky All-Star game that year in high school, twelve of us on the team, and I think we signed five or six guys. I think six of us wound up talking in a room, "Hey, let's don't go and fight each other." So we were doing a little recruiting right then. "Lets' go to one school"....."Where"......"We're going to Western". It was a coach's dream for six guys to walk into your office and say we want to come play ball for you. And they had been recruiting us any way. I don't think that's happened again on that Kentucky All-Star team where that many guys went to one school.

HH: Well, your first varsity team went 16-10. I guess a lot of people were kind of disappointed in that record. I guess they were expecting a lot more out of you?
JM: We were a young ball team. You know, we hadn't played any varsity basketball, we were on the freshman team. We thought it was going to be a little bit easier too. But when you were sophomores and hadn't played and varsity games, and you have four of five guys out there I mean......we lost several close games....two, three, and four points. Just a young team, you know, kind of like the team now. They're going to be a fine team also, but we learned that nobody was going to give us anything, we took our knocks and lost some close games, but you learn, and we ended up okay later on, and we turned it around....the same way these kids now will eventually do.
HH: That's what a lot of people don't seem too understand, it's almost impossible to win with freshmen.
JM: Well, that's exactly right. You can have good ball players, but if you're playing against junior and senior ball teams, just the experience factor alone is a big difference. We had the talent there but we were just young, and it takes a little bit of time to all of sudden move up to that level. We were moved up and thrown right in there.

HH: Well, during your years there at Western....of course Coach Diddle wasn't coaching, but he was still around the program all the time.....
JM: Yes he was.
HH: What were your impressions of him?
JM: Well, Coach was something else. He was a fine man. You know, to sit down with a legend during the morning time and have breakfast was pretty incredible. My freshman year he made sure that all the guys got up there and was going to class, and if you didn't make it he'd be down there knocking on your door....saying, "Hey, let's go!", and he only had to do that to me one time, but he had to get a few guys, but he'd be right up there with them having breakfast making sure we got started on the right track. Now I look back on that and I really think that was the best thing that happened. As a freshman, if you don't get started right you'll have problems, and he got us started on the right track. Then in the evening time I had Coach Oldham, so I had the best of both worlds...two fine men.
HH: So was Coach Diddle at practice a lot?
JM: Yeah, he'd come to practice. He'd just watch and he'd just be around. His influence was right there....kind of like a grand-fatherly figure. I remember I wouldn't even eat the eggs, I'd only eat scrambled eggs, and a lot of times they'd give you "over-easy" eggs and I didn't want to eat them and he'd get on my case about it. So I put pepper on them, or whatever on them, and started to learn to eat those eggs. So I learned to eat them, and I eat them now as a matter of fact. But he was just an incredible man.
HH: I guess the entire team thought a lot of him I guess?
JM: Oh exactly. He passed away at the end of my junior year and it was very devastating.
HH: Did you guys kind of dedicate your senior year to Coach Diddle?
JM: Oh yeah, really our junior and senior years. You know we turned that program around our junior year obviously, and got rolling pretty well there.

HH: Yeah, you guys were 22-3 your junior year, and lost to Jacksonville, who were runners-up that year, right?
JM: Right. That was a big shocker. Jim Rose had a fever of 103 or 104 for one, but they had a fine team, we had never run against a team that huge....they were HUGE. They had two seven-footers in the lineup and they just had a real powerful team. As a matter of fact, they were runner-up to the national championship that year. So they beat us that year, but we said, "We'll be back next year and we'll see you guys then."

HH: Now your senior year you started out by losing Jerome Perry to an injury. Talk about how big of a loss that was.
JM: Big loss. Jerome was probably the best all-around athlete on the team. I think Coach Oldham will tell you that. He could run and do it all. He ran track.....he was the best overall athlete and he could do a lot of things.....he was incredible. There's no telling what we'd have done if he'd played.
So we were really pretty devastated by losing him. We would have been a much better ball team, a much deeper ball team by having him.
HH: What were his strong points as a player? Was he a great shooter or just an all-around good player or what?
JM: Well, his off-the-court personality for one. He was a leader. He was funny. On the court he just had talent, he was quick. I tried to beat him in sprints four years and never beat him....but I never quit trying (Laughs). He could run, shoot, jump....great defensive player, super team player. You know, just an all-around fine player and athlete.
HH: Now he never really recovered too well from that injury did he?
JM: No he didn't. He really did not recover that well from that injury. But you know, we were out there just practicing, we were taking pictures....just out there messing around, playing a little ball, nothing serious. It was a freak accident.
HH: Was it his leg or his knee?
JM: His knee.
HH: An ACL?
JM: If I'm not mistaken, I think it was. Now days if had done something like that I'm sure he would have been a lot better off, but those were kind of different times.
HH: Did he just step on somebody or what?
JM: He came down on somebody. It was a lot more serious than we thought. We weren't even breaking a real hard sweat out there at the time. You know kids, just horsing around in between taking pictures and them setting up cameras before the season that year. But that was a tremendous loss for us.
HH: I guess it was hard on him having to sit out like that?
JM: Oh, you know it was very hard on him, very hard on him. He handled it a lot better on the surface. But I'm sure underneath he really felt it. He was a big part of our team even after that but that just hurt. It was tough watching him over there with that cast on on the bench.

(WKU vs. UK Soundclips)

HH: It's too bad that Coach Diddle wasn't around another year to see that.
JM: Yeah. Yeah, but I think he was looking down on it....and enjoyed it. We did those guys in pretty good. It was one of the great games that year.....of course we had a few of them though.
HH: I read that Clem was in Arizona at that time playing with the Suns, and after his game when he came home and found out the score he climbed up on his roof and started dancing.
JM: (LAUGHS) I wouldn't doubt it. A lot of people were doing that. That whole city, and towns around that area of Southcentral Kentucky was CRAZY for that ball team. That arena used to be packed quite often.
HH: This entire region used to be Red Towel Territory.
JM: Oh, I tell you, it was incredible. The people were proud, the people around them small towns were absolutely incredible. Well, we had all of the guys from the small towns around, when you think about it too. And the people knew we played for them, they felt us out there on the court. We gave everything we had every game. And we loved the community and the people, and they fell in love with us, and it was a marriage made in Heaven. It was incredible.

HH: Now did you guys have much trouble on the road....I know Coach Oldham has talked about with Clem and Dwight's team that a lot of times they couldn't eat in some restaurants on the road and things like that, did you guys face that much trouble when you were there?
JM: We didn't have that problem that they had. I know when we went to certain places we stayed in a certain hotel, but as far as eating places, we didn't have the problems those guys had. They paved the way and made it much easier for us. There was a couple of times as a team that we went out to different places.....we'd go to a black place....a club some night, you know, kids just going out. And they didn't want the white players to come in. We'd get in and they would stop those guys. We said, "Wait, wait a minute. What's going on?" They said, "They can't come in." We were such a team that we'd say, "Okay," and then we would leave, we'd all leave. It was kind of strange for the white players on the team because they had never had to deal with THAT. Reverse discrimination. But, our team was that close, it didn't matter. We were that close. And I think things like that will help to bond any team. It was just a team thing, and I was the captain of the team. So that was no problem for us at all. But Dwight and Clem and those guys....they made the way quite a bit easier for us.
HH: Now did you get to be pretty good friends with Greg Smith also?
JM: Not as much as Clem and Dwight. I was a freshman when he was a senior, so you know, seniors don't deal with freshmen that well. (LAUGHS) I was about the same way.

HH: Well, talk about the Final Four run..
JM: Well, let's start back with the first one ....Jacksonville. We had already played Jacksonville earlier that year (WKU 97 JU-84) and ran back into them again, and the had us down eighteen at halftime....can you believe that? 18 points at halftime. I remember a lot of people had started turning off their televisions and everything. We were in the dressing room and Coach "O" came in......he stayed out for a while and then he came in.....quiet, he didn't say anything. He went over and took a piece of chalk and got on the floor and wrote a big "20". He made a short speech.....he said, "Okay guys, we're down eighteen.....we've got twenty minutes to go......I believe you can do it. If you don't do it, you have to realize one thing.....it's over.....the whole run is over." That was a reality check, we all looked at each other, 'cause you know, you're not thinking like that. Then he walked out. Everybody said that was the best halftime speech he ever gave. We looked at each other and sat there for a minute, then went back in the huddle and said, "Hey, we don't want it to be over, let's go out there and do it." We went out there and did it. We came back and won by two points. And that's when you could hold the ball. That was an incredible win....against a really tough basketball team. It sounds a lot easier than it was, but it was tough.
HH: I guess that would have been really tough especially to have lost to Jacksonville for the second year in a row in the first round.
JM: Yes, it would have been. Yes, it would have been. But I think the fact of it is, they probably thought we were dead too...but you never count out the Hilltoppers in those days. It was never over until it was over.
HH: You guys had beat them pretty bad earlier in the season too didn't you?
JM: At Freedom Hall.....a packed house, plus........people were just crazy. That place was just crazy. We beat them by I think 13 in Freedom Hall.

HH: So what was Coach Oldham like most of the time? Did he ever yell at you guys much? Was he always low-key?
JM: Coach was never really a yeller. He'd say what he had to say. He was never a screamer or a yeller. He'd get a little bit excited, but he wasn't one of those kind of coaches. He had a ball team where he didn't have to do that. We responded to him real well. That's one reason I wanted to play for him. I couldn't have played for a coach screaming every time down the court, ranting and waving, it would have driven me nuts. Some players don't respond as well to that kind of thing. You don't know when a guy's serious or when he's not. You know, the game is on the floor. It's not a sideshow for the coaches. There's times to get excited, but I prefer a Phil Jackson or a Coach Oldham personally.

HH: Now that Jacksonville game was won on a final shot by Clarence Glover when he pretended to tie his shoe?
JM: The old shoe-string play. They had a couple of guys hanging on me. Clarence bent down to tie his shoe up and they had already turned and looked around.....well, at 7' 2" you don't look down. He was the only man I think I've ever seen hide on a basketball court. Everybody kept saying, "C", "C", and we all knew what it meant. Sundmaker takes the ball and throws it past all of these long arms....the shot was supposed to have been for me, everybody in the building knew that, and Clarence got the ball and faked about three or four times, nobody on him, and the ball goes in the basket and that place went crazy. It was incredible. That was probably one of the biggest wins in the history of Western Kentucky, but we had a few of them that year that was like that. So they seemed like they kept getting bigger and bigger.

HH: Well, the kentucky was next, and then Ohio State....that was an overtime game also.
JM: Right, right.We were down in that game fourteen points at halftime.
HH: What was it about the first halves that you guys got down so much?
JM: I don't know. Teams would come out after us. They scouted us real well and they knew our plays. They just played some tough basketball. Ohio State was a very tough team, very tough, very good team. But there again, we just refused to be denied. I think our team had the will to win that was incredible. That's what it takes. You just have to have a certain will to win, to not be denied. no matter whether you win or lose. Our team was the kind of team, whether you beat us or you didn't beat us, you didn't want anymore part of us, because we really came to play. We pulled that jersey on that said, "WESTERN KENTUCKY" on it and we came to play, EVERY night.
HH: Well, you came back from 14 down and won by three in overtime.
JM: Won by three in overtime. And that was a real tough game, they were tough a tough team. Another big crowd.

HH: Well, after that, you headed off to the Final Four. Did you guys fully expect to win the entire thing?
JM: That was our goal, obviously. That was our goal. Looking at it, I still think we were a better team than Villanova. On paper, we were a better team than Villanova. But when you get in a tournament like that that doesn't mean anything. They played an excellent ball game and we fouled out four guys....that didn't help. We played double overtime and lost by three points......it was a tough, heart-breaking loss.
HH: Now you fouled out also didn't you?
JM: I fouled out, Jim Rose....we had four guys to foul out, four starters. I think I fouled out, if I'm not mistaken, in the first overtime. Guys kept going out but we kept battling, and kept battling, and kept battling. That's just the way the breaks go, but we can't complain.....the Jacksonville game coming back, Ohio State....you know, games we played that we were blessed to win. So we can't complain. We really wanted UCLA bad. I don't think UCLA wanted any part of us....because we were around them and had a chance to look in their eye and they looked in our eye, and they dropped their head. That was a great sign. We were one team that they didn't want to play. We matched up better with them position for position. I think Glover could have handled Sidney Wicks pretty well and there's no way Patterson was going to handle me. But I really believe that would have been one great game, without a doubt. But we all agree....we should have been there. But that's the breaks. When you think about going to a tournament like that and getting to the Final Four, how many other Western teams have been there, how many teams have been there period? It was a great thing for a bunch of country boys to get there (LAUGHS), but we did get there....and it was exciting.
HH: Wasn't there a couple of missed free throws and a missed layup that kind of hurt you really bad?
JM: Yeah, we missed a couple of things there. As a matter of fact, Glover missed a layup in that game. But you know, it's not just one or two things, it's the run of the whole game. We should have done better. The scouting report wasn't quite up to par in some areas that it had been. I think we kind of MAYBE just kind of overlooked them a little bit. Not really overlooked them, but we didn't expect that from them. They rose to the occasion and just played one of their best games.....and they had to play one of their best games of the year to get their and to beat us. But anytime a team gets up in that area, think about it, they made it there too....so they're not pushovers.
HH: I'm sure Jerome Perry would have really helped in those games?
JM: Ohhhhh, Lord yeah. You know he would have been a big help.
HH: You guys really didn't have a lot of depth did you?
JM: We really didn't. We really didn't. We had some great guys on the team, but any real serious depth...they played their hearts out, but Jerome Perry would have been a big plus for us there. That's when you start to miss a guy like that.

HH: Well, you came back and beat Kansas by two points (77-75)...
JM: Yeah, we were not going to go out a loser. And that was one of the toughest games I've ever seen, they didn't want to go out.....they were tough. That's the one game I felt like a couple of us was going to pass out at the end of the game. It was an incredible game, tight all the way. But we said we are NOT going out a loser and we FINALLY knocked them off there. We played a real good game that game.

HH: Well, what is your most memorable game at Western? Was it one of those games or another one?
JM: Oh, geez. Like I said, there were a few games that year. The Jacksonville game that year, the one in December when we beat them, I think the one eighteen down coming back was just incredible. The uk game...they're really all kind of on par there. It's hard to point out just one....but I think the eighteen points...coming back, was a great game. You know, we just had four or five games that tournament that were just incredible.....Ohio State, they just kept building, the games got bigger and bigger. I think some of those games are in top of the annals of the history of Western Kentucky Basketball, without a doubt. We just had a great team....we had some good guys on that team.
HH: What about the game against Murray State? Your last home game and the biggest crowd in the history of Diddle Arena? The first time you ever dunked in a game too wasn't it?
JM: Yes. That was a little radical. You know it's amazing that the dunk was outlawed at that time. They took the two points away and then I got a technical foul on top. Looking back on that, isn't that incredible? I had decided that I was going to dunk in that game, I said, "I'm going out in style." But I wasn't planning on doing it until the latter part of the game and the crowd was so crazy that night, it was outstanding. They just let everybody in. It was like, all of the cities around were just all in Bowling Green in Diddle Arena. You could have robbed anything in any city. Nobody was there, the police department, in every city, it was incredible. They just kept letting people come in....the seats were gone, they were just standing. They were so pumped up, they were so excited, that I got so excited, and the game started and I think I dunked within the first three minutes of the game, and that wasn't the plan (LAUGHS). And Murray just said it's over, and they went downhill from there. That place was.......my whole four years there really....the Towels, the enthusiasm, the student body in those days were just CRAZY...they'd get there early to get seats. It was a happening...it reminds me of Duke and some of these teams now. We had good camaraderie with the student body, the students and ourselves. We'd be around campus and everybody had buddies and friends, and they loved us...and we loved them. And when that comes through, they come out.And I don't know, there was just something special about the time....there was just something special. I mean, thousands of students obviously, would fill the place, and plus, like I said, the communities and the townspeople......it was a love affair, and it was beautiful. I was used to playing for big crowds all the time....BIG CROWDS.
HH: Yeah, your teams never lost a home game did they?
JM: No. They wouldn't let us. (LAUGHS) Between the student body and the community, I mean, it was just that exciting. We didn't realize that. I think we would have felt the pressure of that but we never thought about that, we just went out to play. We believed in homecourt advantage. Later on we realized we were 43 or 44-0 at home. That's an incredible record. That's an incredible record. I think if we would have thought about it we would have felt more pressure, but we never really thought about it. We just thought about, this is our home, and we dominate here.
HH: From 1965-71 those teams lost only two games total at home.
JM: Isn't that incredible? Nobody wanted to come play in Diddle Arena in those days. I can understand why. But I believe you've really got to take care of your home business.

HH: What all really happened in the several years after you guys left that caused the program to fall so much?
JM: I don't know, just different things. Of course I had left......
HH: Coach Oldham had left too.
JM: Coach Oldham left, and that was a big thing when Coach left right there......those kinds of teams are special, but there again, it was for years that we really were down, it was years that we were down. Western really suffered quite a bit there. Like I said, I was gone, but I've always said you should recruit the best players out of the state, there's always some good players out of the state of Kentucky. I mean, there's always other good players around, but we should still get some of the top key players from the state. I think we kind of got away from that a little bit, but everybody's got their own ideas how to do things. Not that you have to all of the top players like we had at the time, that was RARE. But I guarantee you, I'd sure be after some of the top players around the state. But we kept changing coaches and different situations came up.....Coach Oldham was the kind of coach that could really recruit. If you look at the seven or eight years that he coached there he had winning teams, he could get the players. His demeanor was incredible, he could right into your home and make everybody feel comfortable. Several coaches came to recruit me but they never came to my home.
HH: Now did Coach Diddle ever come with Coach Oldham to recruit you at your home?
JM: No. Coach Oldham at that time he came on his own. Coach Diddle, I would see him on his own. Coach "O" would come to the house when Ali was fighting....he'd come in the house with my family and he'd sit there......you know, you're very much in tune with people that sit in your home. He'd come in and sit down and ate with us.....and I felt very comfortable with him. That's one reason why I came to Western. Coach has that special thing to be able to do that. Some coaches want you to come out and come up and see them at the hotel, but I felt comfortable with him, he came to my home.
HH: That's the same thing Bobby Rascoe told me about Coach Diddle, he said when Diddle and rupp were both recruiting him that rupp would send a car out to pick him up and take him out to the hotel, but Coach Diddle would be out at his house playing checkers in the kitchen with his parents, and things like that.
JM: Yeah, Coach rupp came to Scottsville and recruited me. I didn't know it, he was over talking to the high school coaches and I never met him then. Until later, when Joe Hall came and picked me up in the car and took me to uk. And like I said, I was there for three days and I talked to Coach rupp for fifteen minutes. He was obviously a legendary coach, like you have with Coach Diddle and Coach Oldham.
HH: The best were down here though.
JM: That's right. That's exactly right. I walked that Hill four years and loved every minute of it.

HH: Well, after you graduated you played five or six years in the pros? You started out pretty great in the ABA but what was it that kept you from having a great pro career?
JM: Different things happened that kind of threw me off a little bit there. Things off the court that kind of threw me off a little bit. I was young and naive. I wasn't around Coach Oldham and the people I had been around at that time. I got up in Seattle with different coaches there and there was a little jealousy with me making so much money. I was young and didn't have a veteran player to take a young kid under his wing. That's what I needed for a few years. I really should have stayed in the ABA for a couple of years....just bad decisions and choices. Literally, I had the ability to play with anybody, my career should have been much better than it was. Looking back on it, I was just young and things started going bad for me there and I didn't know how to handle them. You know, I was used to playing, I was always the player that wanted to play and Seattle wasn't that good of a team at that time. So, some things are out of your hands. But I have no regrets, I thank the Lord I was able to play as long as I did really. But I was just young and too immature for that level, I really was. A country boy....where had I been?? (LAUGHS) You know, I had never been anywhere.And like I said, I wasn't around the people like Coach Oldham and Coach Diddle, and my high school coaches....people who had my best interest at heart. I was the kind of player, I was a young player that had the talent, but just like at Western, I needed the time to play to mature. But they just expect you to come in there and be like Kareem in your first or second year, but it don't work like that. If you notice now, some players can do that, but some it takes them three or four years of playing time to come into their own. But you've got to play them, you can only develop if you play. At each level, you have to step up a little bit higher and you've got to play. And like I said, I never liked sitting on the bench, especially when you look out there and you see guys you know good and well couldn't have started on a college team, but that's the way it goes.
HH: Now did you play the center position the entire time you were in the NBA or did they ever play you at forward?
JM: I played a little forward.....but they didn't know where to play me really, they literally didn't. Bob McAdoo and I played just about alike, but my teams were always trying to keep me more inside. He was fortunate that they let him shoot the ball from fifteen feet out. I was never going to be a Wilt Chamberlain and play like that, but I had my own strengths.I was the kind of guy that could shoot the 12, 15, 16, 17-foot jump shot and run the floor on the break. But I had coaches that wanted me to come down like Wilt and just kind of pound it out inside, back to the basket, and do that, but I was the kind of player that needed to move around, that was my strength, I could run the floor. You can't take away the things that a player does well, but their thing was, "Well, let's work on the things you don't do well." I always thought that was kind of stupid personally. But you just had to play whatever coach wanted you to play. I had no choice. I don't think I was ever really utilized with the strengths that I had properly. I remember I was playing for Bill Russell in Seattle and he was trying to tell me how to shoot a jump shot. Now, Bill Russell never was a shooter. Why would you mess with a guy's shot? That was one of the best things I could DO. So it was just pretty incredible.
HH: Now was he your coach the entire time at Seattle?
JM: No he was there for a couple of three years. Fine player, but he was a terrible coach. And I think I anybody can look at his record on that....a fine player, that doesn't mean.....a lot of times you can be a good player but not be a good coach, or you can find a guy who subs that may wind up being a good coach.You never can tell. But he wanted me to play like him and shoot a hook shot like him, and he was very critical on young players. You have to be patient with young players, you have to encourage young players or you can destroy their confidence. And that's kind of what started happening with me.
HH: And Russell was the one that really started that?
JM: A little bit happened with him but I forgive him

HH: Now when you came back to play with the Colonels did you play any with Darel Carrier any,
or was he already gone?
JM: He was already gone. Darel's a good friend of mine.
HH: Now he's got a son that's a junior right now that's really good, Josh.
JM: I know he is. Western has let too many players like that get out of there. My boy's out in California and was one of the top players in California in high school and I wanted him to come to Western. He wanted to go to Western but they passed on him. He's about 6'6" and just now turned 18...he'll probably be 6'8". He can shoot the ball and run the floor real well.
HH: Where's he at right now?
JM: He's in a junior college right now just because he's so young, but he'll be going to a school
in the next year or two. My son knows Darel Carrier's son, they pay together in the summer time.
But I think the public would have really liked having my son there playing...they call him Big
"E", his name is Eskias. He was one of the top high school players out of that area in California.
He finished up real well, and he can shoot and run the floor real well.
HH: That would've been great to have seen your son and Darel's son playing together here.
JM: That's what we as fathers talked about, and I think the public would have responded big time
to that.
HH: It would have been great to have had Rex Chapman too.
JM: Exactly. You know there's just certain things that we've let slip through our hands that would
have brought a lot of tradition back to Western. My son's like me at that point, when I was with Russell, he's one of them kind of kids you have to bring in and develop, he's young, he's gonna get there, he's got size, he can shoot, he can dribble, he can do it all, but you have to be able to see that in a kid. You've got to have a special eye for that. I'm proud of him. I always said that he was a sleeper as far as major college, he wasn't going to come in and be a starter right away, but he's going to be one of those kind of kids that can come in....I think the last two years will be the time he will really, really have the opportunity to step up and do some real good things at that point in time. He's just young. He's got great grades, a 3.5 GPA, so he's got good grades as well.

HH: Have you had a chance to see Western play this year?
JM: Not at all. I just keep up with them. They've got the size, they're just young. I met Chris Marcus, I really like him. I'd given anything if I could have had the chance to work with him. It takes one big man talking to another one and I really think I would have had a big effect working with him. But it just didn't work out because of my job and his schoolwork, it was always something that came up that we never just got together. Unfortunately, that's just the way it was. He's so tall...I have to look up to him, I mean I have to raise my head to look up.
HH: How tall are you exactly?
JM: I'm 6'11" now that I've got a haircut. You know, back in those days with the afros I was going around 7'0" or so, but I'm actually around 6'11" or a little bit more.
HH: Well, he's going to be unstoppable in a couple of years if he keeps working hard.
JM: If he keeps working hard and gets some good fundamentals down, gets in the weight room and gets a little bulldog in him. You've got to get a little mean. But I think after this year....this whole team, with them being new, they should never forget what's going on this year, and I don't think they will.....nobody's giving them anything. And no matter what size you are....it's like us, we thought we would walk out there and people were just going to roll over.....and a little to that degree almost, I think they maybe thought that same thing, but it doesn't work that way. But we learned and they'll learn too. I think they'll be a MUCH better team next year and then the team after that and every year they're going to be much better. I think they're kind of like our team was my sophomore year to a degree, it just takes a little bit of TIME. People have to be a little patient with it.....2-8 looks ugly but their best basketball is ahead of them. I think Western also needs to keep some flavor on that bench with some Hilltopper players.....we've gone away from that. The people there like to see a little bit of their own on that bench. To recruit players out of that area, you have no Hilltoppers even around the program....it just is not good. Like a Darel Carrier that's right there in Bowling Green. These guys played basketball there. Darel should have already been involved with Western in some capacity a long time ago, I think it starts there. Like I was there for six years....I mean, hey, even if you're a volunteer assistant....come on, something. You can't have guys like us being there and not even do anything at all.....we're Hilltoppers. You've got diamonds in the rough right there under your nose and you don't even use it. It's ridiculous. That's something that hopefully we'll get better in the future with. Anthony Grundy got out of there, there's no way he should have gotten out of Bowling Green. That was the dumbest thing I've ever seen. I helped Darel that year coach (Warren Central) and I knew Anthony Grundy real well, and he (Kilcullen) came to see Grundy the very last game of the season in a tournament, and he was asking Darel about him. I just kind of looked at Darel and walked off. Darel looked at me and we couldn't believe it. Anthony Grundy was one of the very best players in the state and we could have got him. See, he wanted to come, he said, "I'll go to Western. If you guys are up there it would be great because I feel comfortable with you." But Darel's hands were tied and mine were tied also. And Anthony Grundy is doing well down here (N.C. State), he's doing great. They love him down here. You know, it's just things like that, but we've got a new athletics director now I see and I hear he's doing some great things, I can already tell that. He's young, he's open-minded. Western has got a great tradition and you have to build on it. A lot of schools have their former players in some part doing something in the organization, coaching or doing something. And like I said, Darel Carrier should have been doing something a long time ago. I don't understand it, but that's history. I love Western.....I gave them four years of my life....and enjoyed every minute of it. But we've got to get back to some of the basic traditional things that we've lost, and that's one of the reasons why we've been struggling. You know, give the people what they want....those people love to see their former players somewhere in the program. How's the student body? Are they coming out this year?
HH: It's better than last year so far, but of course it's not going to pick up until they start winning.
JM: Right. It'd be great to see that place back up there around ten, eleven thousand again. The people are there, it's just a matter of getting them out to do it. I think the only time we ever played for under nine or ten thousand people was in a blizzard. We had a couple of games where there was a couple of feet of snow and I just knew that there wasn't going to be anybody at the games, but we were still getting eight, nine, ten thousand people in those days. Of course we were a winning team, but even back when Clem and them played, people used to come out big-time. And I think there's a hunger back there with people that want some things to happen, but there's some certain things that just haven't happened. I was frustrated because I was always out in the community talking to people and they were saying, "Jim we need you on the Hill, we need you and Carrier." I said, "Look, my hands are tied, I want to be there but I don't run anything up there at all, so I have no control over that. But I heard that so much it made me sick, but there's nothing you can do.

HH: One problem is, you see cars all over campus with uk license plates and uk flags and all of that crap.
JM: Well, we've allowed that to happen. To me, we've just sat back and casually.....I saw it coming back years ago, and it was like it wasn't no big deal......yes it is a big deal. It's a BIG deal. Back years ago you would have never saw something that ridiculous because a Western man would have dealt with that, you know (LAUGHS), and we've let it go now where it's just ridiculous to have so many kentucky fans that used to be Western fans. We've been asleep and now we wake up.....and like I said, I notice that when I was back there too. There's just a big difference there. I remember when we beat them pretty good there they got all upset about that. You should have saw when we played them down there and we beat them so bad......they were all excited at the start by playing Western, both sides were going crazy. Then the more we was beating them all of a sudden all of those big pom-poms started going down and it got quieter and quieter, that's the way you've got to shut up uk. That's one time that no one would come up and say they were a uk fan. I mean we just beat the living daylights out of them and loved it (LAUGHS).
HH: Clem and those guys would have done it too in '66 if they hadn't gotten ripped off against Michigan.
JM: Yeah. That was an incredible play, there's no doubt about it, that was incredible. We had an awesome team. At that time, Michigan had the big name or whatever.......but that game will always be talked about, without a doubt. I remember sitting there and watching that game.....and it was incredible what happened on that play. They really did steal the game from them. That's when Cazzie Russell was playing for Michigan, and who I later winded up playing with. We talked about that and he kind of laughed. I said, "You guys stole that game". He'd always start laughing about it.

HH: Well, what do you think about having your banner hung from the rafters in Diddle?
JM: It's an absolute great honor to be up there. I'm so glad to see us going into the 21st century. You see other schools hanging them and to see us finally do that is incredible. We've got too much tradition that's just been buried there. So, this is a great thing for the people in and around the community and I'm quite honored being from a small town. So, I'm excited coming back there for this. It's somewhat humbling, really. My vision never got this big obviously. I just wanted to go ahead and play ball, so I'm very excited about this.....coming from a small town of 4-5,000 people and being probably one of the closest players that played there...so far obviously, that is being honored like this. So, I'm very excited about it and I look forward to coming back there and seeing old "44" up there, you know?
HH: Yeah, I saw your banner when they brought it in. They're six-feet long by four-feet wide.
JM: That's HUGE. Wow, just to see them start to hang them Diddle Arena....all these years...there could have been fifteen of them there by now. Other guys that hopefully are going to go up there....like Art Spoelstra, Ralph Crosthwaite.....I'm hoping this is not just five this year, but over time they will put up some of the other guys. It's time....it really was time.
HH: Way past time.
JM: Yeah, and I'm sure I'll be a little emotional. I hear it's a pretty emotional ceremony, from what I'm hearing about Coach Oldham's. I think standing out there being honored like that after being out so long....you can really appreciate it. You can just appreciate a lot more now that I've had the chance to reflect on a lot of things. As I go up, to me, all of my teammates that I played with.....they're right there with me on that. But I'm very excited and I'm hoping some of the guys will wind up showing up when I get back there. It would be great to see them all. So, I'm very excited about going up there with Coach Oldham and all of them. I'm very excited. And I'm like you, we're in the 21st century now, and it's time to start doing these type of things. The university is on the right track, and it's so exciting to see, it really is. You know, kentucky passes us up and we just........you know, come on....let's keep up with what's going on. I remember at one time, in a lot of ways, we were right on par with them, and they just......went past us. And, like we're starting now....this is a great start here what we're doing. And anything I can do to help out at all feel free to call me and I'll be happy to pitch in any way I can. We have too much tradition that's just been buried and put away. We've got a lot of stuff to be proud of and we need to share it with people....with the young kids that are coming up and the community. The tradition is there....we've just been burying it. I'm just so excited to be coming back for something like this, so I'm looking forward to that. I think a lot of people will be coming down from my hometown. It's just going to be a great time. I'm a little nervous....very humbled about this whole situation too. Like I said, I think I can appreciate it quite a bit. I've been out of basketball quite a while.....you know, you don't think about something like this, you just go on and play. And coming from a small town....you know, when I grew up...I grew up pretty rough. Until I got to Western I had cardboard a lot of times on the bottom of my shoes, so I hated when it rained. When I came to Western I had three pair of pants, three shirts, and one pair of shoes....that was my wardrobe, that's what I had when I came. I come from a very humble background....so this right here is absolutely any player's dream. I just hope I can just relax and be calm and cool......keep my emotions in and the whole works, you know? But I'm really looking forward to it. And like I said, not just for this, but down the road any way, if I can pitch in I'll be happy to do that. I love the university.....that's what it's all about. I bleed red more ways than one. But thank-you very much. This worked out fine. I'm glad we got it done. God Bless You, Thank-You, and look forward to seeing you all at the airport and spending some time back there. Thank-you very much.
HH: Thanks Jim.

THE END

HH: Well, talk about the NCAA run that year. I guess beginning with the game where you beat kentucky so bad. How important was that game to you and the team as a whole, considering the numerous times that rupp had pretty much degraded Western and its basketball program?
JM: Yeah....that was going on. You know, Western was always second-fiddle, and whatever, to uk at that time. They would never play Western, then all of a sudden they had to play. We had watched them all year on television, they were on in the afternoons. We would all get in the room on the road and watch them play before we played that night. We had no idea we were going to play them.....we pretty much just watched every play they done. We knew we were a quicker ball team than they were. and by the time we came to play them, sure enough, we knew exactly what they were going to do. We were just absolutely much quicker, faster, and we were much hungrier. And they ran into a buzzsaw....we wanted them BAD. You know, that's obvious by the score.....we wanted to leave a lasting impression of Western Kentucky Basketball on those guys. I think that's the worst defeat in the history of the NCAA Tournament for them, as a matter of fact.

HH: It's too bad that Coach Diddle wasn't around another year to see that.
JM: Yeah. Yeah, but I think he was looking down on it....and enjoyed it. We did those guys in pretty good. It was one of the great games that year.....of course we had a few of them though.
HH: I read that Clem was in Arizona at that time playing with the Suns, and after his game when he came home and found out the score he climbed up on his roof and started dancing.
JM: (LAUGHS) I wouldn't doubt it. A lot of people were doing that. That whole city, and towns around that area of Southcentral Kentucky was CRAZY for that ball team. That arena used to be packed quite often.
HH: This entire region used to be Red Towel Territory.
JM: Oh, I tell you, it was incredible. The people were proud, the people around them small towns were absolutely incredible. Well, we had all of the guys from the small towns around, when you think about it too. And the people knew we played for them, they felt us out there on the court. We gave everything we had every game. And we loved the community and the people, and they fell in love with us, and it was a marriage made in Heaven. It was incredible.

HH: Now did you guys have much trouble on the road....I know Coach Oldham has talked about with Clem and Dwight's team that a lot of times they couldn't eat in some restaurants on the road and things like that, did you guys face that much trouble when you were there?
JM: We didn't have that problem that they had. I know when we went to certain places we stayed in a certain hotel, but as far as eating places, we didn't have the problems those guys had. They paved the way and made it much easier for us. There was a couple of times as a team that we went out to different places.....we'd go to a black place....a club some night, you know, kids just going out. And they didn't want the white players to come in. We'd get in and they would stop those guys. We said, "Wait, wait a minute. What's going on?" They said, "They can't come in." We were such a team that we'd say, "Okay," and then we would leave, we'd all leave. It was kind of strange for the white players on the team because they had never had to deal with THAT. Reverse discrimination. But, our team was that close, it didn't matter. We were that close. And I think things like that will help to bond any team. It was just a team thing, and I was the captain of the team. So that was no problem for us at all. But Dwight and Clem and those guys....they made the way quite a bit easier for us.
HH: Now did you get to be pretty good friends with Greg Smith also?
JM: Not as much as Clem and Dwight. I was a freshman when he was a senior, so you know, seniors don't deal with freshmen that well. (LAUGHS) I was about the same way.